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Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

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Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  May on Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:58 pm

First topic message reminder :

An excellent series of articles by Elena Maria Vidal, exploring the true relationship between the Queen of France and Count Axel von Fersen the Younger, a Swedish emissary at the court of Louis XVI.

http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2007/06/fersen-legend-part-1.html

Too often in the many articles about Marie-Antoinette that have surfaced in the last year due to the Coppola film, Count Axel von Fersen is referred to as the "queen's lover" or as her "probable lover." It is repeatedly disregarded that there is not a scrap of reliable historical evidence that Count Fersen and Marie-Antoinette were anything but friends, and that he was as much her husband’s friend as he was hers. People are free to speak of Louis XV and Madame de Pompadour as “lovers” since they openly lived together for many years. But to speak that way of Marie-Antoinette, who was known for her purity among her circle of close friends, of whom a courtier said: "Her soul was as white as her face," (Vincent Cronin's Louis and Antoinette) who lost her life because she chose to stay at her husband’s side, is the height of irresponsibility.

The Swedish nobleman was in the service of his sovereign King Gustavus III and Count Fersen’s presence at the French court needs to be seen in the light of that capacity. The Swedish King was a devoted friend of Louis XVI and Marie-Antoinette and Gustavus, even more than the queen’s Austrian relatives, worked to aid the King and Queen of France in their time of trouble. Fersen was the go-between in the various top secret plans to help Louis XVI regain control of his kingdom and escape from the clutches of his political enemies. The diplomatic intrigues that went on behind the scenes are more interesting than any imaginary romance. (The queen’s relationship with her husband is more interesting as well.) However, books and movies continue to add this sensationalism to the queen’s life, as if anything could be more sensational than the reality. Serious modern and contemporary scholars, however, such as Paul and Pierrette Girault de Coursac, Hilaire Belloc, Nesta Webster, Simone Bertiere, Philippe Delorme, Jean Chalon, Desmond Seward, and Simon Schama are unanimous in saying that there is no conclusive evidence to prove that Marie-Antoinette violated her marriage vows by dallying with Count Fersen.

The origins of the legend of Marie-Antoinette’s affair with Fersen began not with her revolutionary foes, who certainly would have picked up on anything of that nature to discredit the queen at her trial. Fersen’s name came up at the trial only in regard to the fact that he had driven the royal family’s coach out of Paris in June 1791 as they tried to escape. It was a courtier, the Comte de Saint-Priest, who made insinuations about the queen and Fersen in his memoirs, probably to cover the humiliation that Fersen had slept with Madame de Saint-Priest, his wife. Madame de la Tour du Pin, a former lady-in-waiting of the Queen, in her memoirs mentions that “the Count de Fersen, said to be queen Marie-Antoinette’s lover, also came to see us everyday.” She says this in a paragraph about her childhood where she is discussing the various men who, according to gossip, were “considered” to be in love with with her mother, Madame Dillon. So the Fersen affair is lumped in with what must be seen as idle rumors.

As Jean Chalon points out in his biography Chere Marie-Antoinette, Fersen, who had many mistresses, saw the queen as an angel, to whom he offered reverent and chaste homage. According to Chalon, Marie-Antoinette knew about sex only through conjugal love, where she found her “happiness,” her bonheur essentiel, as she wrote to her mother. If there had been any cause for concern about Count Fersen’s presence at the French court as regards the queen’s reputation, the Austrian ambassador Count Mercy-Argenteau would surely have mentioned it in one of the reams of letters to Marie-Antoinette’s mother Empress Maria Teresa, to whom he passed on every detail of the young queen’s life. Count Mercy had spies whom he paid well to gather information, but Fersen was not worth mentioning. Neither is he mentioned in a romantic way by other people close to the queen in their memoirs, such as her maid Madame Campan and the Baron de Besenval, a close family friend.
http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2007/06/fersen-legend-part-2.html
http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2007/06/fersen-legend-part-3.html
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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Elena on Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:17 am

Didishroom wrote:I know this topic has been beaten to death, but I just wanted to add a few points.

In all the time that they knew each other preceding the Revolution not one of them ever wrote each other a letter or inquired about how the other was doing.

The only time they could have 'known' each other was that one night he spent at the palace in Paris. Now I know everyone likes to imagine their 'affair' as some kind of 18th century bodice ripper fantasy with a handsome man in a ponytail ravashing a queen with pearly white skin, heavy rouge, a contrasting beauty mark and cleavage bursting from her tight corset...except by this time MA was heavy, her hair was grey and falling out with her body having experienced at least six pregnancies, loss of two children and by accounts she apparently looked almost 60....yeahhhh.......not to degrade her Majesty but the picture I have doesn't match the hot and heavy scenario others have cooked up...


p.s. All biographers mention how MA and Louis were constantly guarded at the Tuilierries-even in their bedrooms. How were they ever able to meet with Ferson? Was he snuck in? Was he formally greeted and announced as a royal guest to their Majesties? If his visits were always secret how did he sneak in? And not to play Devil's Advocate-but wouldn't this at least give cover to a one night stand?

p.s.p.s. I do not for one second believe the Ferson myth.

All excellent points, Didishroom. It was easy to get into the Tuileries since there were many entrances. Priests were brought in at night to hear the confessions of the Queen and Madame Elizabeth. Fersen had a certain diplomatic immunity and he (and many others) were able to see the King and Queen either publicly or privately until the arrest of the Royal Family in August 1792. Now the time in which the "one night stand" was thought to occur, Feb 1792, the Queen's bedchamber was heavily guarded at night, since it was after the escape attempt of June 1791. Fersen may have visited her suite but the idea of him spending the night in her bed is ludicrous. Plus Louis had a secret passage to her rooms (according to Madame de Tourzel) so that he could have access to her and he might have walked in at any moment. And yes, the Queen had "a huge stomach and no hair" as Georgiana Duchess of Devonshire had described her two years earlier. The birth of Madame Royale had caused some serious gynecological problems. Plus she had become much more religious. Sleeping with a man not her husband was the last thing she would have done under the circumstances.

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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Kaitlyn Lauren on Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:13 pm

^Absolutely!

Even biographers who believe an affair happened at some point admit that it would have been nearly impossible for Antoinette to have slept with Fersen that February night, for various reasons.

Even if he had lingered in her rooms that doesn't mean he was in her bed. Certainly they would have been seen and she wasn't in the right mindset for any amorous scenes or "nostalgic love making" from the old days, as Fraser put it.

The point about her physical appearance at this point is one that a particular novelist used to say that they did not have sex that night. She also admits that it would've been impossible because of how closely Antoinette was watched but it was mostly for vain reasons. Yes she had grown "old" but certainly even when she had remained a beautiful, young woman she was in the previous decade,

I don't see her romping with a lover and allowing him access to her and touching her in places that ought to be reserved for a husband (which I believe Louis enjoyed Wink ). Much too modest. No moment of madness and certainly no long term fling. Not enough privacy and there was no reason for her to take a lover. By the 80s she was a devoted wife and mother. Seems sily to have an affair with another man (whom she still barely knew at that point). I don't believe at any point she dallied. Why would be betray her husband and morals in such a way?
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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Kaitlyn Lauren on Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:18 pm

Oops typo! I didn't complete one of my sentences in my previous post. I should amend that statement and say "that even when she was that beautiful young woman, and if she had remained so, as in the previous decade, I don't see it being a passionate relationship where she allows him to have her."

I don't see, as someone pointed out, her having new experiences and sensations with this expert lover or any kind of "bodice-ripper" relationship. Of course, proponents will say she maintained her innocence and was still modest and proper and that the sex wasn't a lasting part of the affair and that it tapered off and became platonic. Whatever.
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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Elena on Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:56 pm

Great points, as always, Kaitlyn! I love you

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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Kaitlyn Lauren on Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:11 pm

Thank you! Smile

She didn't need this passionate relationship with Fersen. Why does everyone assume she had no sexual fulfillment from her husband? Not that she was expected to and I get the feeling that didn't matter so much to her. But she could have and probably did.

I agree with Chalon that she only knew about sex through "conjugal love" and didn't need this other, "more handsome" and expertise man to come around and show her what physical relations between a man and woman should be like.
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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Elena on Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:20 pm

Kaitlyn Lauren wrote:Thank you! Smile

She didn't need this passionate relationship with Fersen. Why does everyone assume she had no sexual fulfillment from her husband? Not that she was expected to and I get the feeling that didn't matter so much to her. But she could have and probably did.

I agree with Chalon that she only knew about sex through "conjugal love" and didn't need this other, "more handsome"  and expertise man to come around and show her what physical relations between a man and woman should be like.

It is based on the stupid assumption that a man who has led a promiscuous life is a better lover than a man who has practiced self-control and restraint. Totally not true.

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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Kaitlyn Lauren on Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:38 pm

Yes! Yes Louis was modest and religious but he was still a man. I'm sure he could appreciate her beauty and figure even if he was restrained Wink

Certainly it is more romantic that he was only ever with one woman and lavished all of his love and attentions on her. Why couldn't he be a good lover and learn how to touch and kiss her in order for it to be enjoyable?

Fersen had many women even if Antoinette was his "true" love. He still slept around. Of course she couldn't have expected him to be faithful but I would have thought that if he had her then he would have forsaken other women.

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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Didishroom on Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:15 pm

Not to mention where is MA ever seen as even having a crush on him? Lever and Frasier both say she was "in love." Oh, did she tell you this, ladies? I thought modern biographers are the first to say there is a clear distinction between love and sex. Or are the proponents of this silly scenario as protective of the queen's character as the supposed "religionists" who wish to canonize her? "Sure she cheated on her husband but it was for LOVE! She was no tramp!"

The only "proof" of her having any special effection for him  distinct from the other men in her life are:

1.) Shedding tears over his departure while pregnant and hormonal. Not to mention this farewell was done in a public presentation in front of the court, not hidden behind closed doors. And much like her ancestress, Mary Queen of Scots, Antoinette had a propensity for her over the top emotional outbursts. It was I believe the age of "feelings.'

2.) An ambiguous letter of dubious origins in which the author(no proof that it was the queen or not) says "I love you." A phrase she uttered to all her friends, male and female.

3.) Giving him a ring, which was an uncommon trinket amongst royalists which she supposedly gave to another soldier who helped in acting as a liaison with herself and Ferson. Anyone remember anything more about him? I only recall Webster bringing him up. Or am I mixing this up with someone else?

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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Kaitlyn Lauren on Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:41 am

She was an affectionate person with everyone. I think her indiscretion and favor with him proves her innocence. Why flaunt it if he was her lover? Would she not care what people thought? Doubtful.

If she had loved him or had a crush she certainly couldn't have admitted to it and there's no evidence that she ever said or wrote anything to indicate that even though it would've been dangerous to do so. But she was much to candid to hide her feelings. And advocates will say that the missing letters between then contained love confessions and that her friends were aware of the attraction but I doubt it
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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Kaitlyn Lauren on Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:46 am

And those are great points! You would think that since there's a distinction between love and sex that they wouldn't assume Fersen was too tempting and handsome to resist.

They defend her supposed adultery because she was saddled with some an unattractive husband who was lousy in bed so she found this man with whom she fell in love, who was so gorgeous and gallant, and they shared a passionate relationship. But Antoinette is still so innocent and blameless in all of this. *eyeroll*

Please. I'm not judging and I don't try to put her in extremes but I don't think she could have retained chasteness by having a lover even if they weren't frequent lovers.
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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Sophie on Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:54 am

Didishroom wrote:Anyone remember anything more about him?

There's a strange document here: https://www.facebook.com/GrefveFersen/photos/pb.1438558943028465.-2207520000.1409481715./1499669786917380/?type=3&theater

There is a ciphered letter from Antoinette to Fersen (it's among the comments next to the picture) with some tender words, and then, Fersen made a copy (the picture itself) where he erased the tender passages. I don't know why he did it. Any idea?

The letter itself is from June 1791, some days after the Varennes escape. Supporters of the love affair use it to prove Antoinette's eternal burning love to Fersen, but I don't think it can lead to conclusions about their relationship in the '70s and '80s. I mean, of course she loved him in 1791, because he was one of the few people who really helped her, but does it mean anything more? I don't think so. The only strange detail is, as I mentioned above, why Fersen erased the personal parts of the letter. He might sent the copy to someone who wasn't initiated in his confidential relationship to the royal family and especially to the Queen? Strange, strange... (But still no proof for a passionate love affair. Antoinette ciphered the whole letter and I think it wasn't her instruction to erase that specific part out.)
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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Elena on Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:28 pm

I have a post on those letters, here. http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2011/08/marie-antoinettes-secret-letters.html

When the letters of the queen and Count Fersen were published by his great nephew Baron de Klinckostrom in the late nineteenth century, they proved the nature of the queen and Fersen’s relationship to be principally a diplomatic one. In certain of the letters, mainly those from the queen to Fersen, passages have been erased and are indicated by rows of dots in the printed text. The Coursacs, Webster, and Delorme believe that Fersen erased certain passages himself. The erasures of Fersen were most likely sensitive diplomatic issues, not declarations of love, as authors such as Evelyn Lever have claimed. They concealed allusions to the queen’s disagreements with her brothers-in-law Artois and Provence, or references to the Duc d’Orleans and other revolutionaries, or even mentions of spies or persons whose families would have been compromised had the letters fallen into the wrong hands.

I question the reliability of the claims of Patarin and Nachef that the hidden phrases they have discovered are sweet words from the Queen to the Count. For instance, the letter of June 18, 1791 is supposed to be a letter to Fersen with a request to send a letter to...Fersen? Its decryption reads thus:

"Do not worry about us. It seems that the chiefs of the Assembly want to behave more softly. Talk to my parents about foreign approaches(6 encrypted letters). If they are afraid it is necessary to come to compromise with them. Burn all that is (10 encrypted letters) and send the remainder of the letter to M. von Fersen. He is with the king of Sweden."

Therefore I take the "love letter" from Marie-Antoinette which Patarin and Nachef have "discovered" with a grain of salt. Even if the romantic words were absolutely proved to be genuinely penned by the Queen, it must be remembered that she also wrote loving words to both of her friends Madame de Lamballe (Chalon, p. 349) and Madame de Polignac, calling each of them "mon cher coeur" that is "my dear heart" and saying such things as "je vous embrasse très fort" which means "I kiss you hard." Such was her manner of expression with those of whom she was fond. It must also be kept in mind that Marie-Antoinette absolutely needed the help for the royal cause that only Fersen could give in the outside world; it should not be surprising if her words to him were especially tender, as we are given to believe from Patarin and Nachef's interpretation.

Read more: http://teaattrianon.blogspot.com/2011/08/marie-antoinettes-secret-letters.html#ixzz3CfBvZ6mI

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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Sophie on Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:16 pm

Elena wrote:Even if the romantic words were absolutely proved to be genuinely penned by the Queen, it must be remembered that she also wrote loving words to both of her friends Madame de Lamballe (Chalon, p. 349) and Madame de Polignac, calling each of them "mon cher coeur" that is "my dear heart" and saying such things as "je vous embrasse très fort" which means "I kiss you hard." Such was her manner of expression with those of whom she was fond. It must also be kept in mind that Marie-Antoinette absolutely needed the help for the royal cause that only Fersen could give in the outside world; it should not be surprising if her words to him were especially tender, as we are given to believe from Patarin and Nachef's interpretation.

Thank you! Yes, this is what I find so tragic in this whole "Fersen affair"-thing. Ever since someone in the 1800s came out with it for the first time, people are discussing the same: were they lovers? Weren't they? Yes, of course! No, they weren't! You see the Queen as a saint, she HAD to have a lover! No, I don't, I just don't find this story reliable... But it is! No, it isn't!

This is the ONE AND ONLY topic that comes along with poor Fersen's name on any site, forum or book. Nobody really cares about him as a human, because the only question he raises is if he could be the archetypical "Perfect Lover Guy" of Antoinette. See this letter question I raised above: I would be so interested why Fersen erased that part. Not because I want to know if they were lovers - who the hell could say that from one letter? -, but because I want to see the broader dimensions of his diplomatic and political role in the Revolution. Why did he erase that part from the letter? To hide it from Gustavus that he has such a close relationship to another royal? To save one of his mistresses (Eleonore, for example) from being jealous? To save posterity from the pointless "were they lovers"-debate? Laughing If you see how historians handle with this topic, like in the article you reviewed on the blog, it's only circulating around the same. Were they lovers? Were they lovers? Were they lovers? Were they lovers? Argh.

I'm a bit tired of that after so many years... Wink
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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Elena on Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:22 am

So boring, so fatiguing. Rolling Eyes And Fersen was fascinating man in his own right. His relationship with Eleonore was very passionate. It is so foolish for people to insist that he existed only for the Queen. Mad

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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Sophie on Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:18 pm

Elena wrote:So boring, so fatiguing. Rolling Eyes  And Fersen was  fascinating man in his own right. His relationship with Eleonore was very passionate. It is so foolish for people to insist that he existed only for the Queen. Mad

And people don't know that many "facts" that are used to prove the whole love affair are simply not true. I often read in serious historical works that Antoinette fell in love with Fersen in the '70s/80s. Where is this information coming from? But people consider it as fact rather than interpretation, because it's written by a well-known historian in a thick book. I think this is the weakest point of the whole "Fersen affair": there's no proof that Antoinette loved him more than her other friends before the 1790s. On the contrary, her closest confidant was Gabrielle de Polignac, whom she shared her time and wrote tender letters. And even if she grew closer to Fersen during the Revolution, and loved him more than before, it was the last thing for her to do to get involved in a passionate love affair when her family's throne and existence was in danger.
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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Didishroom on Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:28 pm

Let's not also forget that MA's daughter, Marie Therese, was close with Ferson before his murder. I doubt someone as morally upright and protective of her parents' reputations would have been so receptive of him if there were actual rumors and murmurs concerning the relationship.

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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Elena on Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:30 pm

Sophie wrote:
Elena wrote:So boring, so fatiguing. Rolling Eyes  And Fersen was  fascinating man in his own right. His relationship with Eleonore was very passionate. It is so foolish for people to insist that he existed only for the Queen. Mad

And people don't know that many "facts" that are used to prove the whole love affair are simply not true. I often read in serious historical works that Antoinette fell in love with Fersen in the '70s/80s. Where is this information coming from? But people consider it as fact rather than interpretation, because it's written by a well-known historian in a thick book. I think this is the weakest point of the whole "Fersen affair": there's no proof that Antoinette loved him more than her other friends before the 1790s. On the contrary, her closest confidant was Gabrielle de Polignac, whom she shared her time and wrote tender letters. And even if she grew closer to Fersen during the Revolution, and loved him more than before, it was the last thing for her to do to get involved in a passionate love affair when her family's throne and existence was in danger.

Yes! Especially when he spent all his free time in the arms of another woman! Rolling Eyes

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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Elena on Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:32 pm

Didishroom wrote:Let's not also forget that MA's daughter, Marie Therese, was close with Ferson before his murder. I doubt someone as morally upright and protective of her parents' reputations would have been so receptive of him if there were actual rumors and murmurs concerning the relationship.

Excellent point. MTC saw him as a devoted friend of BOTH of her parents.

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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Sophie on Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:08 pm

Elena wrote:Yes! Especially when he spent all his free time in the arms of another woman! Rolling Eyes

Eleonore is a very interesting woman. She is often seen as Fersen's "stop-gap" while he was away from his true love, Antoinette. And it can be true in some ways - especially if we believe in my theory that Fersen was in a platonic love with the Queen but was never really allowed to fulfill his desires for her. Eleonore was his real mistress, not some angelic figure he could serve and love from a distance. But it's not so well-known anymore that, according to Fersen and Antoinette's correspondence, Antoinette sent messages and gifts to Eleonore and her husband. Or that the Craufurds were supporters from the background, and they probably helped Fersen a lot in his political and diplomatic issues, like the organization of the flight to Montmédy.
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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Elena on Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:17 pm

Sophie wrote:
Elena wrote:Yes! Especially when he spent all his free time in the arms of another woman! Rolling Eyes

Eleonore is a very interesting woman. She is often seen as Fersen's "stop-gap" while he was away from his true love, Antoinette. And it can be true in some ways - especially if we believe in my theory that Fersen was in a platonic love with the Queen but was never really allowed to fulfill his desires for her. Eleonore was his real mistress, not some angelic figure he could serve and love from a distance. But it's not so well-known anymore that, according to Fersen and Antoinette's correspondence, Antoinette sent messages and gifts to Eleonore and her husband. Or that the Craufurds were supporters from the background, and they probably helped Fersen a lot in his political and diplomatic issues, like the organization of the flight to Montmédy.

Exactly! The Craufords were staunch monarchists.

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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Didishroom on Tue Sep 16, 2014 1:59 am

Wait, what? Why was MA sending Eleanor and her HUSBAND gifts??

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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Sophie on Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:00 am

Didishroom wrote:Wait, what? Why was MA sending Eleanor and her HUSBAND gifts??

I think because they were acquaintances, too, regardless of his marriage with Eleonore. The short but informative Wikipedia site on Quintin Craufurd states: "Craufurd was on intimate terms with the French court, especially with Marie Antoinette, and was one of those who arranged the flight to Varennes. He escaped to Brussels, but in 1792 he returned to Paris in the hope of rescuing the royal prisoners." (I wonder, as always, where Wikipedia informations come from, but this specific article is based on Encyclopedia Britannica.) So, Craufurd was a true royalist who helped the King and Queen exactly as Fersen did. I don't know if he was aware of his wife's relationship with Fersen, but they probably lived in an average 18th century marriage: two good friends, enjoying economical advantages of their relationship, with mutual extra-marital affairs.

I also read somewhere about a letter of Fersen that he wrote his sister about his affair with Eleonore. He stated that he doesn't want Antoinette to find out it, because "it would cause her great pain". Of course, some people interpret it as a proof for Fersen and Antoinette's own love affair, but there are a hundred other interpretations, too. It's documented (among others, in Campan's and Ligne's memoirs) that Antoinette didn't like women with questionable moral standards. Maybe Fersen worried about Eleonore and/or himself losing the Queen's respect and patronage. And we still don't know if Fersen was right - how Antoinette would have reacted on his affair with Eleonore, or if she ever found it out at all, then. (All what we know is that there's no source for Antoinette's "great pain" about the Fersen-Eleonore-story.)

My theory is that if we assume that Antoinette and Fersen were so close to each other as historians say, then she definitely had to know about his private life, too. (Or we have to assume that the Perfect Brave Handsome Fersen was a swindler who lied in his Queen's face.) But she didn't send Fersen away, and kept contact with the Craufurds, too. Even if she had problems with any of them, she understood well that their support is more important than their personality or private issues. If it goes on this topic, or on any topic about Antoinette, people tend to oversee that after 1789, everything she said, wrote and did, had a public and political importance. Even the people whom she had contact with weren't there only for her personal pleasure, but for her service. This is how I see Fersen's role in her life, too, first and foremost.
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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Didishroom on Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:45 pm

So interesting! I had no idea about Eleanor and her husband being acquainted with the queen and being in on the escape plans. I think you're correct in supposing that the "great pain" would be disappointment on the queen's part not jealousy. I do recall reading MA banned women from court if they were separated from their husbands and since we have no examples of hypocrisy on her part in other matters we should trust that her disapproval was genuine.

IF Ferson and MA were involved in an affair than think of the creepy love "pentagon(?)" they would be in! It's funny how no supporters of this affair like to acknowledge the relationship between the Craufords and the King and Queen, as it would destroy the romantic image they concocted in their heads!

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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Elena on Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:33 pm

Fersen claimed that the queen had once used his seal on her letters. His seal had the motto: Tutto a te mi guida. “Everything leads me to thee.” Nesta Webster claims that the Queen had also used the seal of Quintin Crauford in her correspondence – using other people’s seals was a subterfuge employed in sensitive diplomatic correspondence, but Fersen thought the words were meant as a message for himself. Rolling Eyes


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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

Post  Sophie on Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:41 pm

Elena wrote:Fersen claimed that the queen had once used his seal on her letters. His seal had the motto: Tutto a te mi guida. “Everything leads me to thee.” Nesta Webster claims that the Queen had also used the seal of Quintin Crauford in her correspondence – using other people’s seals was a subterfuge employed in sensitive diplomatic correspondence, but Fersen thought the words were meant as a message for himself. Rolling Eyes

I never understood why is the sentence in Italian if both Fersen and Antoinette had other native languages, and they communicated in French. It might be only a coincidence, but Eleonore herself was an Italian woman by birth. I find it so kitschy, anyway, that people repeat this sentence as a "motto" of Antoinette. Yes, everything led her to him, that's why she never left her children, even from the prison, and refused to escape without her family... Razz
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Re: Marie-Antoinette and Axel von Fersen

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