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She was never known as "Marie"

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She was never known as "Marie"

Post  Elena on Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:58 pm

I wish people would stop calling her "Marie."

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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  Mata Hari on Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:31 pm

I wish people would, too. She was known in her family as "Antoine" or "Antoinette" NEVER "Marie."

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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  MadameRoyale on Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:30 pm

I agree!
Also, a question: I recently finished reading a new historical fiction account of Marie Antoinette's childhood called Becoming Marie Antoinette, and while it was a charming novel, I felt it was a little awkward to refer to her as "'Toinette". Especially when she was still an Archduchess in Vienna. Not sure if that nickname has any historical significance... But i'd never heard of it before this.
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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  Mata Hari on Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:08 pm

My understanding, from reading Antonia Fraser's bio, is that the only time she was ever called "Toinette" was by the pamphleteers and her other enemies. Mad Her family never called her that. Rolling Eyes

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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  Elena on Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:22 pm

That is my understanding as well. The queen also refers to herself as "Toinette" in Sena Jeter Naslund's novel Abundance. I do not know why when there is no evidence of such a name being used except by her enemies. She was called "Antoinette" or "Antoine" but NOT "Toinette".

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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  Elena on Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:23 pm

MadameRoyale wrote:I agree!
Also, a question: I recently finished reading a new historical fiction account of Marie Antoinette's childhood called Becoming Marie Antoinette, and while it was a charming novel, I felt it was a little awkward to refer to her as "'Toinette". Especially when she was still an Archduchess in Vienna. Not sure if that nickname has any historical significance... But i'd never heard of it before this.

Yes, it IS a charming novel.

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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  MadameRoyale on Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:08 pm

Ah, it must have been something added by the author. It was such a darling book though! I'm excited to see where she takes it in the next instalment. I'm curious especially about how Grey will continue Louis and Antoinette's relationship.

Have there been books that refer to the Queen as "Marie" or is it more of something that comes up in conversation or popular culture? : o
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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  Elena on Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:46 pm

The first time I ever heard MA called "Marie" was in the 1938 film with Norma Shearer. Otherwise, it is usually in pop culture that I hear her called "Marie".

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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  Elena on Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:56 am



Public proof that she was called "Antoinette" but NEVER "Marie."

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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  monica17 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:39 am

Oh. But I seem to recall reading a note by Duke Ferdinand of Parma, reminding his minister not to forget his wife's (Maria Amalia) letter to "Maria" ( or was it "Marie" in French) in the mail intended for Versailles. The note was written in the 1780s. Unless it was a letter intended for Mimi/Maria Christina (also known as "Marie") who was at Versailles in 1786. I'm not sure though if Maria Amalia corresponded a lot with Mimi. I'm also unsure if Amalia had other contacts at Versailles named "Maria"..... I think the letter must be for a rather important personage, seeing that a reigning duke & his minister should be bothered by it. Perhaps "Maria" was how the duke referred to Marie Antoinette, who both his sister-in-law and cousin-in-law.


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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  Mata Hari on Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:44 am

Welcome, Monica! Thank you for joining in! It would be interesting to see this letter. Do you recall where you saw it? Cool

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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  Elena on Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:48 am

Usually in their letters to each other her siblings referred to MA as "The Queen." Her family nickname had been "Antoine."

BTW, I join in the welcome! Wink

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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  monica17 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:50 am

Mata Hari wrote:Welcome, Monica! Thank you for joining in! It would be interesting to see this letter. Do you recall where you saw it? Cool

Thank you for the welcome, Mata Hari. Very Happy

It's from an old, old biography (1932) on Maria Amalia (in Italian). I recall it because I was keeping an eye on any mention of correspondence among the children of Maria Theresa in that book. There are a lot of extant letters (at least in the 1930s) in Italy, both written by Ferdinand & Maria Amalia and their friends. If I recall it right, the minister to whom the note was written to was Marquis Prospero Manara.


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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  Elena on Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:59 am

It sounds like a fascinating book!! It is strange that Ferdinand would refer to any of his sisters that way when writing to a minister but then we often discover things that surprise us when perusing primary sources! Shocked Smile

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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  monica17 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:01 am

Elena wrote:Usually in their letters to each other her siblings referred to MA as "The Queen." Her family nickname had been "Antoine."

BTW, I join in the welcome! Wink

Thank you, elena! Very Happy

Yes, royals then were formal that way.

Maria Amalia's letters also refer to her brother Ferdinand as her "fratello" not Archduke or Governor of Milan and one on Maria Carolina as her "sorella", not the Queen of Naples & Sicily. Duke Ferdinand almost always referred to Maria Amalia as "my wife" in his letters and she referred to Ferdinand as either "the Infante" or "my husband." As for Empress Maria Theresa, Amalia referred to her as "my mother". I guess Bourbon-Parma family was "informal" that way. But sometimes she referred to Leopold as "Gran Duca" and Joseph as "Emperor".

I'll check again for any specific references on Marie Antoinette but that's what I recall. Ferdinand saw to it that his wife's letters to Versailles were sent.

By the way, has anyone in this forum found letters from Marie Antoinette to Maria Carolina in the archives in Naples?


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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  monica17 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:09 am

Elena wrote:It sounds like a fascinating book!! It is strange that Ferdinand would refer to any of his sisters that way when writing to a minister but then we often discover things that surprise us when perusing primary sources! Shocked Smile

Yes, it is a good book. Not perfect and obviously outdated. Still it contained a lot of extant (at least in the 1930s) letters so there's a lot of truth in it. I got confused too because the author often referred to Marie Antoinette, Maria Carolina and Maria Amalia as the "three Marias". The minister Manara was a very good friend of the Bourbon Parma family of that time. He was also one of the young Ferdinand's gentlemen of the chamber. It is a very long association.

I'll try to see if there's anything else specific on Marie Antoinette on that book - it's been two years since- and will post in a day or two, if any. Very Happy

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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  Elena on Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:45 am

This is very interesting! Smile What a treasure that book is. I am reminded now of The Secret Memoirs of Princess de Lamballe, which some historians discount but I always thought it to be worthwhile. The editor, Catherine Hyde, takes letters from the Queen to her sister Maria Carolina in Naples, and Maria Carolina weeps and sighs, "Oh, Maria!" I thought it was just a translator's mistake but who knows. They may have called each other "Maria" in their family correspondence, especially during the Revolution to confuse any spies. I think some of the sisters' letters are reprinted in the book, as well as the cypher which was used. I must revisit it to check!

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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  monica17 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:26 pm

Elena wrote:This is very interesting! Smile What a treasure that book is. I am reminded now of The Secret Memoirs of Princess de Lamballe, which some historians discount but I always thought it to be worthwhile. The editor, Catherine Hyde, takes letters from the Queen to her sister Maria Carolina in Naples, and Maria Carolina weeps and sighs, "Oh, Maria!" I thought it was just a translator's mistake but who knows. They may have called each other "Maria" in their family correspondence, especially during the Revolution to confuse any spies. I think some of the sisters' letters are reprinted in the book, as well as the cypher which was used. I must revisit it to check!

Catherine Hyde was the Marchioness Broglio Solari, right?

I think "Maria" indeed was used by them (including Duke Ferdinand of Parma) from time to time.

The "issue" I have with the marchioness' account of Maria Amalia's reaction to her sister's predicament (which the marchioness thought was "cold") is that Marie Antoinette supposedly told her that she would find Amalia in the capital (Parma) or in Colorno. Amalia was not in the capital often, she never seemed to like it there much and since 1775, spent less and less time there than in the previous years. She had her own place in Sala Baganza while she also spent time in Colorno with her family. What is certain is that she stayed in the capital during her pregnancies and/or deliveries. Marie Antoinette would have known about her sister's country estate in Sala Baganza and how much time Amalia spent there. By the 1790s, when the marchioness went to Parma to deliver Marie Antoinette's letter, Amalia was past her childbearing years ( in 1791/92- that would make her 45-46 years old). Or at least, there was no pregnancy recorded.

Just my thoughts. sunny


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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  Elena on Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:30 pm

Great insights! Thank you! I remember how Catherine was harsh on Amalia. Do you know anything about Catherine Hyde's husband, the Marquess Broglio Scolari? I have never been able to find anything about her marriage.

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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  Julygirl on Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:32 pm

I would like to thank Monica for making this thread especially interesting!! cheers cheers
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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  monica17 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:52 pm

Elena wrote:Great insights! Thank you! I remember how Catherine was harsh on Amalia. Do you know anything about Catherine Hyde's husband, the Marquess Broglio Scolari? I have never been able to find anything about her marriage.

I haven't read much on her (Catherine), I only remember she claimed that Amalia's reaction was "cold". From what I read and understand of her, Amalia could be "contradictory" at times. However, there was one account of a French emigre who had an audience with her in Parma and he wrote that she was so angry at the insults to her sister (Marie Antoinette) she (like Maria Carolina) vowed revenge. It is clear from all that I have read, Amalia was very loyal to Austria, her parents and siblings. Next to her own family (and people) in Parma, that is.

I've never come across any mention of the Broglio Solari in Parma-related materials. I'll try to check on her husband's family. Then I'll post any information.

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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  monica17 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:06 pm

Julygirl wrote:I would like to thank Monica for making this thread especially interesting!! cheers cheers

My pleasure, Julygirl. I find the posts here interesting as well. Very Happy

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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

Post  monica17 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:20 am

(as promised) I'm posting information on Maria Amalia and Marie Antoinette on the Habsburg family thread (which I think is the more appropriate thread on the sisters' relationship)......

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Re: She was never known as "Marie"

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